The cycle.... disclaimer, I m not looking for shortcuts more knowledge.

[FishyMcFishFace]

Ok.. firstly I get the cycle, I get the bacteria we are looking to grow to break down the ammonia basically to nothing using the base element of nitrogen for growth. I have read the posts on here, I have watched the videos on Youtube I get the idea of the cycle, what I don't get is the actual cycle argument, with in reason obviously.

N.B. this is more relevant to a planted tank, of decent size, initially with a small group of fish.

Firstly I must say I am a gardener, I also grow vegetables, both in open beds and in a green house, so I get that plants do a great job of processing waste (ammonia all the way down to base nitrogen, been doing it for nearly 10 years). So if you have a decent sized tank, say 60-100 litres, you have plants (which will probably convert ammonia to growth better than anything else) what would be the harm in adding a small group of fish to provide that ammonia to them? Again a small selection of the same fish, hardy, in a large tank, the idea that they will be swimming in a poop filled tank with in a week is hard to get your head around. If not fish, shrimp surely also produce ammonia on a much smaller scale? Is this not more natural than adding pure ammonia daily?

Again, I am not suggesting filling, or overfilling a tank on day one with fish but when you feed your plants in an aquarium you are surely adding nitrogen on a weekly basis, what am I missing?

[black ghost]

In theory it’s fine, but the amount of plant life per fish is quite large, and they also need to be actively growing. The filter is a much safer option, and allows for a lot more fish. The bacterial population converts far more ammonia more quickly, because the average tank is hugely overstocked, compared to the natural environment. But if you just had literally a couple of tiny fish, plants would process the ammonia.

[FishyMcFishFace]

In theory it’s fine, but the amount of plant life per fish is quite large, and they also need to be actively growing. The filter is a much safer option, and allows for a lot more fish. The bacterial population converts far more ammonia more quickly, because the average tank is hugely overstocked, compared to the natural environment.

I agree the theory adds up and thats how my mind works, I am an engineer and as annoying as it is, and believe me it annoys me, I question a lot until i understand it. Believe me I want my fish, when I get them to be happy. Again I am totally against stocking a tank based on the size of the fish when bought rather than the size when the fish grow, which of course they will. This forum is a lot more tolerant than others, which I read but don't actually interact in or are a member of. Basically my question is, if you have a tank, ran conditioners to remove other toxins from tap water, would a small stock cycle not be more "natural" than adding base element ammonia?

[FishyMcFishFace]

This guy makes sense to me, please feel free to rebuttal...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guT1GKJ7jIo

[mikeyw64]

In theory it’s fine, but the amount of plant life per fish is quite large, and they also need to be actively growing. The filter is a much safer option, and allows for a lot more fish. The bacterial population converts far more ammonia more quickly, because the average tank is hugely overstocked, compared to the natural environment.

Would a small stock cycle not be more "natural" than adding base element ammonia?

Yes a small stock cycle is more " natural" than adding ammonia but....


a) It's an old fashioned method
b) It can be unkind on the fish in the event of a ammonia/nitrate spike
c) It can take longer than fishless cycle


I'm relatively new to fishkeeping (only having started Aug last year) .

My first tank I cycled the "natural" way (mainly cos I knew no better and was following the LFS's advice) and it took a lot of water changes and stress not to mention best part of 3 months to get it to the point I was happy to add more stock.


My 2nd & 4th Tanks I cycled fishlessly , each took about 1 month at which stage I was able to go to my (at the time) final stocking levels as with the fishless cycle you are maxing the ammonia out


The 3rd was a bit of a hybrid as its only 24 litres and I dumped a load of spare media from my 80 litre in there, added the baby platys then also did regular water changes

My Cycling Logs

[Martinspuddle]

Ok.. firstly I get the cycle, I get the bacteria we are looking to grow to break down the ammonia basically to nothing using the base element of nitrogen for growth. I have read the posts on here, I have watched the videos on Youtube I get the idea of the cycle, what I don't get is the actual cycle argument, with in reason obviously.

N.B. this is more relevant to a planted tank, of decent size, initially with a small group of fish.

Firstly I must say I am a gardener, I also grow vegetables, both in open beds and in a green house, so I get that plants do a great job of processing waste (ammonia all the way down to base nitrogen, been doing it for nearly 10 years). So if you have a decent sized tank, say 60-100 litres, you have plants (which will probably convert ammonia to growth better than anything else) what would be the harm in adding a small group of fish to provide that ammonia to them? Again a small selection of the same fish, hardy, in a large tank, the idea that they will be swimming in a poop filled tank with in a week is hard to get your head around. If not fish, shrimp surely also produce ammonia on a much smaller scale? Is this not more natural than adding pure ammonia daily?

Again, I am not suggesting filling, or overfilling a tank on day one with fish but when you feed your plants in an aquarium you are surely adding nitrogen on a weekly basis, what am I missing?

Yes it can be done, but not as a long term setup and certainly this not something I would ever suggest a newbie even try.

It's not unusual for aquascaping enthusiasts and professional aquascapers to run a high tech planted aquarium setup this way with a very low bio load, then you have to bare in mind these sort of setups are only meant for display for a few weeks or months before been dismantled and use for another aquascape, not as a long term home aquarium.

Best stick to the tried and tested method.

[Wishafish]

In a garden if the ammonia or other fertiliser isn’t used straight away it just sits there, it doesn’t cause any harm. In a fish tank the fish cannot get away from it, so the risk is higher if we as keepers get anything wrong.

I am not a gardener, so forgive my terminology, but from observation aquarium plants often “shut down” or “reset” when transferred to a new tank, due to different water conditions. This can mean leaves die off and/or plants stop growing for a bit, and they won’t be using ammonia if they are not growing. In fact if leaves die off and are not removed they will produce ammonia themselves - I had this in my new tank last week causing a huge ammonia spike. If I had had fish in there they would likely have died.

Maybe there is a skill to getting plants to grow as soon as they go into the tank, I don’t know. Even when I’ve moved plants between two tanks in my house in the past they have stopped growing for a bit. If you could guarantee that the plants would consume the ammonia then a few tiny fish would be ok. But how do you guarantee that without letting the plants settle for a few weeks? And what happens when you want to add more fish? Most of us as hobbyists keep far more fish per litre than would be found in any natural environment and the fish to plant ratio is all wrong. That’s why we rely on filtration.

[SPACKlick]

Others have mentioned the risk of harm to the fish, the difficulty of control. I'd also raise that fish in cycling is harder. Even with plant based rather than bacteria based cycling (a combination of both is best).

With a fishless method using just ammonia all you do for the cycling period is take water out of the tank in a pipette, run some tests and drip ammonia/fertiliser into the tank. Then one or two big water changes right at the end if there's been a bigger build up of nitrates than the life in the tank can handle.

With a fish in cycle. You will be changing the water often, twice a day sometimes, to keep ammonia and especially nitrite, below 0.25ppm at all times. The system will also be poorly seasoned, so you're more likely to have mini cycles when adding the next fish.

Fish in cycling is much harder. Plant based cycling isn't significantly easier than bacteria cycling. Where aquarium co-op says "The goal [of cycling] is that a fish can live in the water and waste doesn't build up enough to kill that fish". First, I'd say that the goal of Doesn't Kill is a bit weak, we'd really be looking at doesn't harm or distress the fish. And that is the goal. However if you've put plants in the tank and then go to add your fish, you have no idea how efficient those plants are, and how much ammonia they can convert and how much waste those fish put out. So you don't know if a tank is sufficiently nitrogen safe before you put fish in.

In summary, from that video what I agree with; Plants are great for tanks at any part of the cycle. Adding plants from cycled tanks can add bacteria. What I think is a little disingenuous in that video is he doesn't mention that adding fertiliser and adding ammonia are the same process. And that the time taken for plants to establish and bacteria to establish isn't always significantly different.

[FishyMcFishFace]

All on board, ammonia in 3.5mls, test kits should be here today or tomorrow.

[plankton]

What hasn't been made clear anywhere as far as I can tell is the amount of long-term damage small amounts of ammonia and nitrite can do to the fish.
It can delay, or even stop, growth and development of internal organs, damage gills, burn skin and leave the immune systems weakened. These are the main reasons why a lot of fish will die during the (fish-in) cycle as well.
Daily top-ups of ammonia to cycle are also a lot easier and quicker than daily water changes to remove the toxins with fish in the tank.