Thinking about marine

A place to keep us informed of the goings on in your tanks. - Tank Logs - For the marine keepers!
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Sarah
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Not wanting to step too much into cheltgirls thread I have a few thoughts/questions on the teeny weeny idea of a marine set up. 
You see having seen cheltgirls post ( yes I completely blame you ;)  )
I ventured into my two lfs.....gawd I wish I didn't!
 One shop doesn't sell live rock and hasn't done for approx 18 months. Sells a sort of fake rock (did look good) which you then glue corals to and explained about cycling a filter. (I was talking to them for over an hour! This is one very shortened version)
Other shop said you can not prepare a tank without live rock as this is the actual filter and can not be done without it! (£15.99/kg)
Also that if you have a marine tank you would not be able to leave eg. Go on holiday as maintenance will be daily.
 So...with the possibility of a 50/60 litre tank with corals and inverts would anyone have any experience of maintenance time or weeks aways regarding tank care?
I kind of like the idea of only putting what I want and have tried to research into a tank leaving all the possible nasties out therefore no live rock, the second shop made me feel a bit of an idiot and that it can't be done especially without me staring at my tank 24/7.
What are anyone else's experience please.
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Annie
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No experience to offer but looking forward to hearing your progress once you know what’s what :)
Bikini Bottom - 168l Bronze, Peppered & Albino Cory, Black Widows, Cherry & Green Tiger Barb, Amanos The Kremlin - 58l  Bronze Corys
QT - 15l
Bronze Cory Fry
stuaz
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I actually asked something similar in Cheltgirls thread around rock as I am also venturing into the world of marine tanks so take what I say with some scepticism as I am still researching/learning ;)

You can use dried reef rock but then it does need seeding but there are a lot of proven "Bacteria in a bottle" products and the cycle will take longer to happen.

Live rock is the preferred method as it has all the bacteria in it, though it can come with some little guys you may not want in an aquarium. However you can also get these little guys via other means such as corals. (You can also get Live sand as well).

Both methods will act as a filter of sort as they will hold bacteria. From what I have read Marine tanks avoid the use of sponges for filters because they harbour nitrates.

Not sure about the fact you have to watch it 24/7. I know people in the marine world often go on about "tank crashes" but they seem to be more around equipment failures, eg heater. There is also the fact of having to deal with evaporation and added RO water so many people invest in auto top offs that will put the RO water in when the level drops. Maybe thats what the store was referring to about "no holidays"....

Anyway, just some of my thoughts, I will let the experts answer now :D
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Cheltgirl
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Hello :D happy to be blamed :D

Still at work so can’t answer all your queries at the mo. I’ll go more in depth when at home later. Basically though both shops are a little bit right and a little bit wrong. So nothing really new there :)
500L Sooperhooge Goldfish tank :)
200L The Barbarium….Tiger barbs and a very grumpy BN plec
200L Marine Reef.....stocking in progress!
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Sarah
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stuaz wrote: I actually asked something similar in Cheltgirls thread around rock as I am also venturing into the world of marine tanks so take what I say with some scepticism as I am still researching/learning ;)

You can use dried reef rock but then it does need seeding but there are a lot of proven "Bacteria in a bottle" products and the cycle will take longer to happen.

Live rock is the preferred method as it has all the bacteria in it, though it can come with some little guys you may not want in an aquarium. However you can also get these little guys via other means such as corals. (You can also get Live sand as well).

Both methods will act as a filter of sort as they will hold bacteria. From what I have read Marine tanks avoid the use of sponges for filters because they harbour nitrates.

Not sure about the fact you have to watch it 24/7. I know people in the marine world often go on about "tank crashes" but they seem to be more around equipment failures, eg heater. There is also the fact of having to deal with evaporation and added RO water so many people invest in auto top offs that will put the RO water in when the level drops. Maybe thats what the store was referring to about "no holidays"....

Anyway, just some of my thoughts, I will let the experts answer now :D
Thanks for the reply, yes the first shop suggested I think seachem stability as a sort of bacteria in a bottle. To sort of jog things along a little. I live very close to this store and with the idea of a small tank I was just gonna collect some RO weekly ( I nearly pass the place every few days)
I also appreciate that the smaller the tank the quicker things can go down hill if you are not keeping up with maintenance etc but the second shop actually put me off entirely as I do work away for 3-4 days at a time occasionally and they seemed to think that was paramount to animal cruelty!
Likewise the small amount of research so far indicates it might be more than a rather steep learning curve for the first 12 months- which I'm sort of up for as part of a new phase in my fishkeeping hobby.
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Cheltgirl
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Hellooooooo :D

First off, LFS know as much about marine (or often less) than they do about freshwater as you've discovered they've totally contradicted each other through their lack of knowledge.

Both ways of cycling are equally valid and both will work. It comes down to personal choice. Here are some pros and cons for both.

No live rock:
Pros: No nasties (although bear in mind that any corals you get will need to be dipped or you may get them anyway)
        You can get the pre-made rock in some nice shapes

Cons: You will have to cycle the tank using ammonia the same as you would a fresh so possible weeks of waiting. Even using the bacteria stuff.
          You won't get any of the good guys that come with the live rock that do play a part in the marine ecosystem (you can buy things like copepods)
          The pre-made rock (Aquaroche is one brand) is horribly expensive. 

Live rock:
Pros: You have an almost instant cycle as the bacteria is already on the rock. A week of testing to make sure there isn't an ammonia spike if there's any bacteria die off due to it being moved.
         You will get the good guys that arrive on the live rock. If you do get a pest hitchhiker you would deal with it the same way you would if there were snails or something in a fresh. Manual removal, a trap or treatment. Over time I bought over 20kg of the stuff and not once did I have anything unwanted. That's not to say you wont but it's not as common as it can be made out to be.

Maintenance:
In a small tank it's pretty much the same as fresh. Water change once a week. Glass scrape, gravel vac maybe. Unless you've got a heavily stocked tank with lots of corals that are using up all the elements in the water you won't need to be dosing every day. You would know the levels of elements in the water you make then during weekly testing you would be able to see how much of each is being used, calcium, magnesium etc. If the levels were dropping below the ideal range then you would top up. Over time you would get used to the amount which is how people set up auto dosing machines to put in the right amount. A bit like EI dosing for plant ferts. You need X amount each week divided by 6 or 7. Nothing to say you cant do it every few days or weekly. I didn't have a heavily stocked tank. It was mostly 'softies' and never needed to top up anything. I was able to keep the levels in the right range with decent water changes (20-25%).

Live sand: Don't bother. The bacteria will grow on the sand if using either method of cycling. It's a waste of money.

Filter: You can use one if you want. It will give extra flow too. Sponges and other media we use in fresh can be used. They have a reputation of being nitrate factories because they will produce nitrate if theyre not maintained properly. They need to be cleaned weekly. As with fresh, bacteria will grow in them but with sufficient rock and flow there will be enough bacteria to maintain the bioload. You could put live rock (seeded dry rock) in there I suppose for extra capacity (that's what I'd do) and maybe some filter floss to catch debris but that would need to be changed often, at least weekly.

Buying RO:
Fine to start with (long term you may want your own machine as the cost of it builds up). Quality can vary depending on the LFS. Always, always take a TDS pen with you and test their RO before buying, anything over 10ppm don't buy it. It shows they haven't changed their filters for a long time. You also want to test it for nitrate and phosphate which is another sign of bad husbandry at the store. Both should be zero. Never buy the pre-made saltwater either. Again the levels can vary a lot so best to mix your own. Get a good quality salt mix.

Live rock is expensive so you could get a little bit and the rest dry and it will get seeded but will take time to spread (think little bit of cycled media to get you going then stock slowly)

Evaporation. Get a lid :D it's that simple. A piece of Perspex is not expensive. Even if you only put it on when you're away. If you had an open topped fresh tank at 25 degrees you'd need to top that up too.

The man in the shop saying you couldn't leave a salty for a few days is, to be perfectly honest, an idiot!!

Yes it's a learning curve but it's not as different to fresh as some like to make out.  The basics are all the same there a just a few extra steps you need to add in.

There will be a cost of extra equipment you'll need to buy but not as much as people say (some salty people get very uppity about equipment). Here are the common things you'll hear/read.

"You have to have a sump"...…..No you don't
"You have to have a skimmer".....No you don't
"You have to dose daily"......No you don't

Good water, good salt, good light, good flow, good maintenance = good tank :D

Back to work now :( but if I've missed anything let me know :)

Any more questions, feel free :)

Sorry for the essay :shy:

@"fr499y" can check me on details :) hoping I haven't made any glaring errors!!
500L Sooperhooge Goldfish tank :)
200L The Barbarium….Tiger barbs and a very grumpy BN plec
200L Marine Reef.....stocking in progress!
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Sarah
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Cheltgirl thank you so much for taking the time to reply and explain a few things.
The first store was the more honest and explained that whilst liverock=instant cycle they had over the last year or so moved away from this and as said gone via the fake rock/reef glue for corals sort of set ups. 
I know these guys as I have bought quite a lot from them over time including one of my tanks and do feel that on the whole they would keep me on the right track, although I am aware that this is their business and how they make a wage!
The 2nd shop I thought I would try to get a bit more info/research and they were sure setting without live rock couldn't be done, why would you? That I would need every marine solution they had for sale on one shelf! That there would be too much to do to go away on holiday and they do not offer refunds for marine!
Now I'm all for having my eyes opened and explaining the costs and time involved but it was so negative that myself and husband came out thinking we should maybe stop the hobby altogether!
Anyway I shall continue with my thoughts and research and keep a close eye on what you are up to :)
One thing that's come about..I have a 54 litre that I could possibly convert. When mentioning a conversion and wanting corals both stores mentioned I would need to look at lighting and the importance of this, first shop said bring the tank hood in and they would see what fits, prices etc 
Second shop said cheapest would probably be about £150 (I have yet to look online).
Fluval  Evo 52 litres £140 marine set up lights incl??????
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Cheltgirl
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Hmmm I think I would stick with the first shop too! The second one sounds awful.

Lighting is very important. Converting the lid you have will be harder and will limit options somewhat but could be done. Rather than having an actual light unit like I have on my marine or goldy tank you could get the led strips and attach them to the underside. Make sure you get ones that are at least 15000k. eBay and amazon have a fairly good choice. Shops are always more expensive than online but for marine they tend to be lots more expensive!
500L Sooperhooge Goldfish tank :)
200L The Barbarium….Tiger barbs and a very grumpy BN plec
200L Marine Reef.....stocking in progress!
GruntPuppy
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I thought about marine as well when I bought the setup I'm currently refurbing, since it came with all the equipment for a marine setup.

Then I thought about how many marine keepers I know who've had - as mentioned - "tank crashes" - shuddered, and ever so carefully backed away from the idea! Especially with the cost of marine flora and fauna :o

I would say that the live rock is not the filter, it's the "good bacteria" that's living in it, and that these good guys can come from other sources. I would say that your filter is the filter, and the live rock (or sand) are a way of seeding the good bacteria colonies in your tank.

^^^ after that, I went on a google spree. OH DEAR GOD THE CONTRADICTIONS! - but most sites agree that live rock/sand is faster (with the possibilty of unwanted thingies being introduced). If I was going to go marine, I think I'd be paranoid and go with dead sand and rock, and take my time with the cycling - safer in the long term, if frustrating.

This was quite interesting: https://www.wikihow.pet/Cycle-a-Saltwater-Tank I was somewhat disappointed by the answer to the golden-brown algae problem - spot the deliberate mistake...
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black ghost
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Don’t let anyone tell you marine is difficult. At its most basic it’s just water and sea salt. For fish only you can even use “freshwater” sand/gravel. The nitrogen cycle is exactly the same even though it uses different bacteria species, and filtration is exactly the same, using the same media. The only difference that’s absolutely necessary is the salt.

Live rock is good but you don’t need it. An ordinary canister will do the job just as well. Coral sand as a substrate looks the part, but isn’t essential because sea water actually isn’t all that hard (c. 12-15 GH iirc), and if your tap water is hard enough...

That’s fish only. It’s no harder, just more expensive (weekly salt) and more to check (salinity). For the other stuff... corals, anemones, macroalgae, inverts... you need correct lighting, and nutrients etc.

I went marine once with a 50g (4’x18”x18”). Lots of live rock, a few anemones, a few fish and £400 later my ‘reef’ still looked about 10% inhabited... so I gave up and came back to proper fish.
Last edited by black ghost on Wed Jun 05, 2019 17:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don't keep fish, I keep water. Water keeps fish.
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