Twitching betta.

[VikingMummy2015]

I was able to bring this up on the group (it’s a Facebook betta group) and, yep, very much “most betta keepers and breeders will say” and “a quick google will tell you the same”. Another of their vocal admins reckons fibre causes constipation and requires high protein foods to flush through.
I did the quick Google suggested and left 3 screenshots from various betta specific websites, all of which say to include fibre in the diet, not just protein, and to use pea to cure bloating/constipation. I’ll report back as to what they say in response!
Oh...quick check and the response is:
“Again betta are insectivores
Peas aren’t part of their natural diet
Daphnia works better for them

Why would you feed them something that isn’t part of their normal digestive diet when you can use something else that works?

So I’ll keep recommending what works and prevent others from having issues feeding peas like many many betta owners have had and learned the hard way”
So...basically there is no evidence one way or the other.

[SPACKlick]

So I did a bit more digging, the most useful thing I found so far was The intestines of Carnivorous fish: Sturctures and functions and the relations with diet by Buddington et al which references several papers from the 90's which found

Atlantic Salmon fed diets containing soy bean products provide an example. As yet unidentified components of soy beans cause mucosal damage and reduced digestive function

So at least in theory legumes can harm carnivorous fish intestines. Although I doubt there's overwhelming similarity between Salmon and Betta guts.

[VikingMummy2015]

Apparently I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing now (last ditch argument of someone who can't actually provide evidence one way or the other). I suspect I might find myself blocked but...meh. This woman does do a lot to help people, yes. But it's definitely her way or the highway if you try to question anything! The last response is along the lines of: the enzymes in the betta's stomach process protein so adding a pea in that the enzymes can't process means in theory it'll just pass through with any blockage. The problem is that if you've a bloated betta, adding something else in there that they can't digest isn't going to be all that great. So why do something that can worsen the problem when there's a safer method, because it's a guess whether it'll pass or not. The reason more experienced keepers who have had hundreds of fish, and breeders don't recommend it is they've had the first hand experience, rather than someone who's tried it with 1 or 2 bettas and they've been fine.

I've asked her if she can explain the science behind feeding the betta daphnia instead of a pea, and how that is more likely to pass the blockage instead. I suspect she'll come back with "because I and my friends say so". She has already said she doesn't know of any studies that show peas are good or bad, she's just going with her opinion based on the experiences she's heard.

[plankton]

I can understand the use of daphnia as they only eat algae and presume that would act as a laxative as well......
The problem is some people is that they don't look at the whole picture.
I don't believe that bettas are exclusively insectivores as they need to find food as they're travelling from one pond to another, so they're far more likely to find vegetation that's available then......?
The reason that the "husks" are no good is that they are too hard difficult to break up. Now they might damage the digestive system inadvertently.

[Vale!]

[I realise we're straying possibly far from your original intention, Mito, so if you'd rather all this 'pea' business is hived off to its own thread, do say!]

I found a couple of relevant papers late last night, one of which may be particularly relevant. I left the tabs open on my tablet but haven't yet read in detail. This morning I've sent some questions to a contact in Thailand (from whom I get Catappa leaves). They are Betta breeders themselves, and are in touch with others in that industry, so I've asked about about the general practice of feeding Betta and the detail of diagnosing and treating 'constipation'. It may well be that due to their climate they have zero need to supplement their fishes' natural diet with factory-produced food, but I've delivered a volley of questions anyway to see if they've got any views! Hopefully they'll reply in reasonable time.

[VikingMummy2015]

Well, I haven't been blocked from the group but the conversation was deleted. I'm genuinely interested to understand the science behind it all and why she seems so dead against peas. I'm not even sure you could experiment, given you're putting fishes lives at risk. But when her experience is a fish has died, she's blaming it on the pea rather than considering it was the initial reason for feeding the pea. There is no way to work that one out, so we're left purely with science of how a betta's digestive tract functions, how it functions compared to other fish (where this isn't even a debate), and also how much vegetation a betta consumes in the wild in order to source necessary fibre (or is it all from the guts of the insects it consumes, as Ian has suggested above).
My argument with her was that she insisted point blank that if you feed your betta a pea, you're basically killing it and the only thing to offer is daphnia. She also, in many other posts, points out that betta don't actually like daphnia that much (she compared it to humans with lettuce...we eat it when there's nothing else on offer but only if we're really hungry). Many of the people who have a bloated betta feed it on a strictly pellet/flake diet, so I'm not sure they'd know what to do with daphnia if offered it for one, and also these same people will not have daphnia to hand but will in all probability have peas somewhere near, either in the freezer or a quick trip to the supermarket. And a little pellet of pea will probably/possibly look more like "food" to the pellet fed fish and therefore slightly more chance of eating it. All I wanted was for her to acknowledge that she might be doing more harm by not allowing it to be suggested.

I will keep my head down in that group and see what we can come up with collectively (eg. what Vale! discovers). I have no problem if the result is that peas are generally fatal to betta, because we'll all have learnt something. But I want proof, not the inevitable "they" saying so.

[Mito]

This thread is getting betta and betta (sorry). Thanks to all who have taken the time to look for answers. Perhaps the knowledge gained here could be applied to other species.
I tried feeding some daphnia this morning, they were spat out quite violently. He's had a couple of days of little or no food and tonight he seems much better. He's swimming normally and showing interest in his surroundings. I think I've been guilty of over feeding and that this caused the problem. I shall have to control my "kindness" in future. Tomorrow I'll do a large water change.

[plankton]

Ah! So! They don't like daphnia then!
It does sound like he had got porky and not digesting quickly enough, hence putting pressure on the swim bladder.

[WinterRose73]

@VikingMummy2015 Out of interest can you tell me which betta group it is? Or PM me the name?

@Mito Glad your boy is doing better

[Mito]

I think I've cracked it! My first attempt at up loading from my phone. Improvement continues and a second lot of daphnia was spat out this morning. A couple of brine shrimp went down very well. A poor video from my phone. This is something new, snail bashing! He started to do this this morning and any snail on the glass received this treatment. The background noise is my wife killing an omelette.
https://youtu.be/1DNI6CjVotk